Hunter’s Recommendations The .30-30 is the best deer hunting round to take along with you, an enjoyable shot with less recoil. In addition to the many variations of the Trapdoor Springfield the Army used, several early Gatling Gun models fired the .45-70 Government cartridge. For one thing, even when using very high pressure loads designed for modern rifles, the cartridge only produces between 3,000 and 3,600 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. that being said, any deer i've shot with a shotgun slug dropped right on the spot. For instance, Federal Premium ammunition makes a load firing a 300gr Power-Shok at 1850 feet per second, generating a 2280 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Known for its bone crushing power and excellent terminal performance on virtually every species of North American big game at short to medium range, hunters all over the United States still utilize the .45-70 for deer hunting in thick conditions and it’s also quite effective on black bear, feral hogs, moose, and … Some expert marksmen could extend the range significantly farther. Soon, hunters had access to quality lever action and single shot rifles and repeaters such as the Remington Rolling Block, the Remington-Keene, the Sharps 1874 “Buffalo Rifle,” the Winchester-Hotchkiss, Winchester Model 1885 “High Wall,” and the Winchester Model 1886. The .30-30 is probably a better choice for casual shooting or plinking. For this reason, long range shooters using cartridges like the .45-70, such as buffalo hunters back in the late 1800s, used “tang” or “ladder” iron sights with Vernier scales that allowed for very precise elevation adjustments. As you can see in the photo below, the .45-70 Government is a straight-wall, rimmed cartridge that shoots .45 caliber bullets while the .30-30 Winchester uses a rimmed, bottle-necked case and shoots .30 caliber bullets.Typical bullet weights for the .30-30 are 140-170gr (150gr and 170gr bullets are most common) while the .45-70 is usually available with bullet weights in the 250-405gr range (250gr, 300gr, 325gr, 350gr, and 405gr bullets are most common). These rifles are often easy to carry, whether on foot or on horseback, and are quick to mount and fire. I poking to buy a 45-70 Winchester buy Ruger lever action. Straight-walled rifle cartridges are legal in many states for deer … As long as he estimated the range correctly, a skilled marksman using a high quality rifle and sight could accurately hit targets out past 1,000 yards using the cartridge. is arguably the best choice out of all of the straight wall cartridges. Both cartridges are great options for those who like to reload. I recently shot a150 lb. This round has endured decade after decade, winning over new generations of sportsmen who migh tinitially be attracted to it as a historical curiosity, only to discover how versatile, and relevant, it remains for hunting big game and dangerous game today. While recoil is indeed substantial, it’s not necessarily excessive either. So, what ammo you should use depends on the rifle you intend to shoot it in. You’d need to aim about 64″ (just over 5 feet) above your target to be dead on at 500 yards and about 201″ high (16.75 feet) above your target to be dead on at 800 yards without adjusting your sights. My thanks to everyone writing here. I wouldn't have taken that shot with a 45-70. As a follow up. 405 grain hand loaded to 2100 FPS. Though modern loadings using smokeless powder have certainly improved the performance of the cartridge, the ballistics of the .45-70 on paper simply can’t compete with many newer options like the .444 Marlin, the .450 Marlin, and the .458 Win Mag. There are few modern cartridges that can match balance of power and portability that the .45-70 Government offers. If you’re hitting about 2″ high at 100 yards right now, that works out to about a 175 yard zero. Really hot loads like the Grizzly Hunter Xtreme are great for modern rifles, but they aren’t safe for use in older .45-70 rifles like the Trapdoor Springfield. The .450 Marlin has ballistics almost identical to magnum .45-70 Government ammunition and the cartridge fires the same weight bullet approximately 600fps faster than lower pressure .45-70 ammo intended for use in the Trapdoor Springfield. The .450 Marlin has ballistics almost identical to magnum .45-70 Government ammunition and the cartridge fires the same weight bullet approximately 600fps faster than lower pressure .45-70 ammo intended for use in the Trapdoor Springfield. Out of all the cartridges that have survived, to say it is the .45-70 is surprising to many folks. The 1873 US Springfield rifle, also known as the “Trap Door,” had to be capable of producing a 4-inch group at 100 yards in order to be considered for military service. You can also get lower powered ammo for the .45-70 but that does accentuate the parabolic path of the bullet. As states that have traditionally been shotgun-only for deer hunting are beginning to open their seasons to the use of straight wall cartridges, the .45-70 is seeing a resurgence in popularity and use, and … A 500 grain would be too long, and would probably jam your elevator. This original black powder load pushed a cast lead bullet at a velocity of about 1350 feet per second. Most hunters in North America are probably familiar with the .45-70 Government. The ballistics shown above are for black powder 45-70 not the Standard and there is also 45-70 Strong Ballistics which make 308 seem significantly weaker by comparison. Well, designers at Hornady attempted to solve that problem with their “LEVERevolution”, line of ammunition for cartridges like the .30-30 Winchester, .35 Remington, and .45-70 Govt that are popular in lever guns. For these reasons, the .45-70 is an ideal cartridge for hunting deer, black bear, feral hogs, moose, brown bear, and other big game in thick woods or heavy cover where short range shots (>100 yards) are common. When it comes to hunting with a large-bore, straight-wall cartridge, hunters want a dependable and accurate rifle. Jerry Burden 450 Marlin vs 45-70. I want to do my first float hunt in September for moose/grizzly. I have nine deer down to my Marlin .45-70, all with 300 grain factory hollow points. I used a marlin 1895 with 325 grain hornady ftx. The 45 govt is definitely overkill. While it would not be my first choice for the longer range shots that are sometimes encountered in areas like the Kalahari Desert or Serengeti Plain, the cartridge shines when taking shots in the thick bushy conditions often encountered in the Lowveld or Mopani Bush areas common in many parts of Africa. Even when using the relatively simple solid lead bullets available at the time, the .45-70 was an extremely effective on game ranging from whitetail deer and black bear all the way up to the larger, tougher, and sometimes more dangerous species like moose, grizzly bear, and bison. Using high quality soft point bullets, the cartridge can be absolutely deadly on plains game like blue wildebeest and kudu at short range. Are you just itching to take a rifle chambered in .45-70 on a hunt? Make no mistake: the .45-70 is capable of excellent accuracy in the right hands. New to the 45-70 world. .45-70 LEVERevolution ammunition is available with either a 250 grain MonoFlex or a 325 grain FTX bullet. That would have been right in the 45-70's wheel house. On a deer sized critter, the shotgun slug and the 45/70 bullet are both much more than needed for a swift kill so as AGL says, dead is dead. Get it here: https://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/core-lokt-ammo-45-70-government-405gr-sp-prod96842.aspx?avad=177422_d1c75e2b1&aid=143054&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-app&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_content=NA&utm_campaign=Itwine Thank You for this excellent article on the 45-70 cartridge. When sporting cartridges with high velocity and smokeless powder arrived in the 1890s, the first to rival the popularity of the .45-70 was the .30-30 Winchester. With a 200 yard zero, that .30-30 load will hit 3” high at 100 yards and about 12” low at 300 yards. Since the new cartridge was designed at the United States government operated Springfield Armory and used a 405 grain, .45 caliber bullet (.458″ diameter) propelled by 70 grains of powder, the cartridge received the designation “.45-70-405.”. John, I bought vintage 45-70 mfg 1889 in 45-70. Marlin Firearms. I have a shorter custom Lee Factory Crimp Die and will likely seat the bullets to an overall cartridge length of 2.52". Even when using the relatively simple solid lead bullets available at the time, the .45-70 was an extremely effective on game ranging from whitetail deer and black bear all the way up to the larger, tougher, and sometimes more dangerous species like moose, grizzly bear, and bison. Straight-walled rifle cartridges are legal in many states for deer … Due to these constraints, while the .45-70 Govt is popular among black powder silhouette shooters, few modern hunters use the cartridge at ranges past 200 yards. 45-70 vs. 35 Whelen 02-18-2012, 06:49. In contrast, the .45-70 was consistent in its manner of killing medium game. While they’re both very common and widely used, the .30-30 Winchester is also a more popular cartridge, so ammunition is more common and often quite a bit cheaper than .45-70 ammo. It is a serious heavy hitter, which makes it an ideal choice for hunters who need that sort of performance on really big and or dangerous game like moose or brown/grizzly bear. Those are the two most popular cartridges among hunters who use lever-action rifles in North America. In case you were wondering, the name of the cartridge comes from the black powder naming convention in common use at the time that consisted of the caliber of the cartridge followed by the standard load of powder in grains (like the .50-110 Winchester for instance). Combined with modern bullet construction, these enhanced loads dramatically improve the performance of the .45-70 on virtually all game species when compared to the original black powder load. The newer sabot slugs with the rifled choke tubes make the 12ga nearly as accurate out to 100 yds as most shooters are capable of shooting (off the bench the .30-30 or .45-70 rifle will probably produce slightly tighter groups, but with off-hand shots you're unlikely to notice the difference.) However, there used to be a Hi-Speed hunting load for use in rifles. A few observations. However, in today’s rifles with today’s bullets, it’s assuredly not. In addition to use on North American game, the .45-70 Govt can also be a very effective cartridge for an African Safari. There’s no reason why you couldn’t go shoot a .45-70 just for fun (and LOTS of people do), but it’s just more expensive and a little harder on the shoulder. This is 200 fps faster than the same company’s load (with the same bullet) for the .45-70. Re: 44 mag or 45-70 for Iowa deer … 45-70 405gr lead round nose gets a big thumbs up on deer. It is also known as .45-70-405 which means 405 grain, .45 caliber bullet and being pushed by 70 grains of black powder. Hydrostatic effect is higher with higher velocity so the internal damage will be higher with the 45/70. Even when using the relatively simple solid lead bullets available at the time, the .45-70 was an extremely effective on game ranging from whitetail deer and black bear all the way up to the larger, tougher, and sometimes more dangerous species like moose, grizzly bear, and bison. So, while the .45-70 is about as American as apple pie, the .30-30 Winchester, the .30-06 Springfield, and the .45 Colt, only a relatively small percentage of dedicated hunters and shooters still use it these days. What is maximum cup/psi for it. This is illustrated in the table below comparing a two different .45-70 Govt loads to a pretty typical .30-06 load. rc rcmodel, Oct 20, 2010 #11. natman Member. Both 30-30 and 45-70 offer a practical purpose as well. They’re also both well suited for those who like using cast bullets as well as jacketed or mono-metal bullets. 1 year ago. Using modern, high pressure ammunition in one of those older rifles can be very dangerous. I would however like to point out that when handloading cast bullets ypu can obtain 525 to 535 grain bullets with a brinnel reading of 25. Even though there are some very real challenges associated with using the .45-70 in certain situations, the cartridge also offers some significant advantages to hunters as well. Most of the necked cartridges of similar ballistics can carry twice that distance. I'm sure this question gets asked a lot but here it comes again. Among other options, they offer a load featuring a 405 grain jacketed flat nose bullet propelled at 2000 feet per second for a tooth rattling 3597 foot pounds of muzzle energy. This table illustrates just how important precise range estimation and applying the proper hold over become at ranges past about 200 yards with the .45-70. For instance, using the ballistics of the original black powder .45-70 load, a bullet will drop nearly 90 inches between 300 and 400 yards! Inversely, too dense of a bullet would pencil through game without creating a wide, fast-killing wound. The .45-70 Gov’t. A loyal segment of hunters and shooters still use the cartridge, but many others are skeptical of the capabilities of the venerable .45-70, especially when compared to more modern cartridge options. Most would think a more popular cartridge would have survived this long and still be a popular choice for sportsmen. Designed in 1873 for use in the single-shot “Trapdoor” Springfield, the original .45-70 Government cartridge loading fired a 405 grain bullet propelled by a powder charge of 70 grains of black powder in a copper case. This ammo is loaded with bullets that have a pointed, flexible, polymer tip. While either will easily kill deer or pigs at 100 yds, the only advantage the .44 mag has over the 45/70 is a lighter weight gun. Using modern, smokeless powder, most of the ammunition manufacturers currently produce a wide variety of loads of varying power for the .45-70. In 1879, a more efficient load was adopted and designated the .45-70-500 (500-grain bullet). Following the Spanish-American war, the Springfield in .45-70 Gov’t. The .45-70 was developed for the army to be used in … Born in 1873, .45-70 Govt. Common sense prevailed and it's well it did. A product of the blackpowder era, the original .45-70 Gov’t cartridge fired a 405-grain .458-inch bullet at velocities over 1,300 fps, and as westward expansion prompted conflicts between the U.S. government and Native American nations it was the .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield that became the weapon of choice for warring parties on both sides. On a deer sized critter, the shotgun slug and the 45/70 bullet are both much more than needed for a swift kill so as AGL says, dead is dead. For anything further out I Bring the .300 win mag or .375 h&h. Yes, I know it’s been done before, but that doesn’t mean hunting cape buffalo with the .45-70 is a good idea. Generally speaking, most straight wall cartridges do not carry the same downrange energy or pose the same long-distance threat that necked cartridges carry. Thanks for your support. Channels created by a small .30-caliber bullet could exceed the diameter of those produced by the large, slow-moving, .45-caliber projectiles. Finally, Buffalo Bore produces some of the hottest .45-70 loads available. Hope this helps! 45-70 vs. 35 Whelen 02-18-2012, 06:49. At the same time, don’t let anybody tell you that the .45-70 Govt is a bad choice for deer hunting because it’s “overkill” or because it “ruins a lot of meat.” On the contrary, unlike high velocity cartridges (like the .300 Win Mag), the low velocity bullets used by the 45-70 do not produce large amounts of ruined, blood shot meat on thin skinned animals such as deer. It’s all relative to what you are comfortable with. The 1894 Marlin in .44 is at least a pound lighter than the 1895 gbl .45/70. This round has endured decade after decade, winning over new generations of sportsmen who migh tinitially be attracted to it as a historical curiosity, only to discover how versatile, and relevant, it remains for hunting big game and dangerous game today. Hi Jerry. Hog quarteringin my direction at about 40 yds and she looked like she was hit by a freight train. The 45 govt is definitely overkill. The Outfitter G2 is now offered in .44 Rem Magnum, .45-70, .450 Bushmaster, .35 Whelen, .243 Winchester and .357 Magnum. This was a meat hunt. In this article, I’m going to do a detailed analysis of the .45-70 Government in an effort to cut through some of the myths and misunderstandings out there regarding the capabilities of the .45-70 Govt so you can make an informed decision regarding whether or not you should hunt with one. I'm sure this question gets asked a lot but here it comes again. On the other hand, the .45-70 has 2,158 ft-lbs of energy remaining at 100 yards, 1,516 ft-lbs of energy at 200 yards, and 1,083 ft-lbs of energy at 300 yards. A 525 grain Beartooth Piledriver started off at around 1,600fps or a little higher will do the trick on anything, if your placement is good. Kills may have been slow from time to time, but as long as shot placement was reasonable — bleeding was fast and kills were clean. This means I will earn a small commission (at no extra cost to you) if you make a purchase. For the thin-skinned animals like deer, you should use the .45-70 Government, as the low velocity of this bullet will not ruin or blood-shot meat. Make sure you follow The Big Game Hunting Blog on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. the bullet was recovered inside the rib cage on the opposite side. With all that in mind, the .30-30 Winchester still remains a great choice for many hunters. Fortunately, there are still some good options out there that are plenty safe to use in those older rifles. Again, it can, of course, reach a target at long range, but that’s not the point of hunting. In response to significant demand for good rifles chambered in the cartridge, it didn’t take long for the major manufacturers to began building .45-70 Govt rifles specifically marketed and designed for civilian hunters. As a remnant from a bygone age in American history, there are few other cartridges that have as long and storied of a history as the .45-70. Muzzle Energy 3735 Foot Pounds. Personally I'd opt for the 12ga... Slugs will take either deer or hogs out to 100yds with ease. On my 2nd Alaska hunt I was going to use a 45-70. For hunting deer, black bear, and feral hogs, for example, either one will deliver the performance you need. After much research, cartridge designers discovered that a high-velocity, small-caliber projectile could produce large — disproportionate to caliber — wound channels. The .30-30 Winchester is known for moderate power and moderate recoil in easy to carry lever-action carbines. On large game, the .30-30 was adopted to some extent, but was never as reliable as the heavyweight .45-70 projectile. Whereas a necked cartridge carries a lot more energy and range, but a straight-wall cartridge under most hunting situations will not carry beyond 300 yards. Hydrostatic effect is higher with higher velocity so the internal damage will be higher with the 45/70. 11 BEST HUNTING EAR PROTECTION OPTIONS FOR SPORTSMEN IN 2020, Patience Is Rewarded With A Trophy Whitetail Buck, https://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/core-lokt-ammo-45-70-government-405gr-sp-prod96842.aspx?avad=177422_d1c75e2b1&aid=143054&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-app&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_content=NA&utm_campaign=Itwine, https://www.luckygunner.com/45-70-govt-405-grain-soft-point-remington-core-lokt-20-rounds?utm_source=bghb&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=45-70_corelokt#rid=bghb, 6.5 Creedmoor vs 243 Winchester Review & Comparison, 6.5 Creedmoor vs 7mm-08 Remington Review & Comparison, 6.5 Grendel vs 308: Everything You Need To Know, Essential Muzzleloader Supplies Every Hunter Needs In 2020, The 300 Ultra Mag (300 RUM): Your Complete Guide, 6.8 SPC vs 6.5 Grendel: What You Need To Know, 6.5 PRC: Ultimate Guide To What You Need To Know, 5 Of The Best Traditional Muzzleloaders For Hunters In 2020, Best 22LR Ammo For Hunting, Plinking, Target Shooting & More. This is 200 fps faster than the same company’s load (with the same bullet) for the .45-70. That is why you use hotter rounds like the Grizzly Hunter Xtreme 45-70..325 Grains among our first successful self-contained metallic rifle cartridges. Big big hole and lots of penetration. The second largest antelope. For the .350 Legend, the ammo of choice is Winchester’s 150-grain Deer Season XP, with a listed muzzle velocity of 2,325 fps and a BC of .223. However, while the .45-70 Govt was beloved by hunters during the 1800s, popularity of the cartridge has dropped off in recent years. After all, there’s a reason why the Marlin Model 1895G Guide Gun is so popular among hunters and outfitters in Alaska. The .45-70 was designed to bring down horses and mounted soldiers /warriors on the charge, so they will certainly bring down deer. I know, the .44-40 has probably killed more deer than anything except the .30-30. So, there are lots of options for both cartridges if you like to hand load. Unfortunately, the .45-70 Govt is difficult to shoot at longer ranges because the slow velocity and low ballistic coefficient of the bullet, even when using modern bullets such as Hornady’s “LEVERevolution,” combine to produce a pretty steep trajectory. The 45-70 Standard vs the Trapdoor is night and day. Jerry Burden. Along with this, few designers had much knowledge of the effectiveness of small bores on large animals. In our county in Texas we get 1 13 inch inside or greater and a spike or half spike. The U.S. Army continued to use various models of this rifle and cartridge in limited numbers through the Spanish-American War and Philippine Insurrection in the late 1800s and early 1900s. How much angle do I go to for 500 yds and 800 yds The .45-70 Govt shoots heavier and larger diameter bullets than the .30-30 Winchester. I am thinking about using the Hornady 325 FTX. For a more detailed discussion on .45-70 Government hunting ammunition, read this article: Best .45-70 Ammo For Hunting Deer, Bear, Moose, & Other Big Game. While either will easily kill deer or pigs at 100 yds, the only advantage the .44 mag has over the 45/70 is a lighter weight gun. It fires a 350 grain .458 caliber bullet at 2,250 feet per second. This helps support the blog and allows me to continue to create free content that’s useful to hunters like yourself. have no problems with it on wild hogs in arkansas. That advantage in energy does narrow as the range increases, but neither cartridge is really ideally suited for longer ranged shooting. Agree. However, there used to be a Hi-Speed hunting load for use in rifles. The .45-70 Government (especially with modern ammunition) has a reputation for hard hitting performance on both ends. So, many hunters use the .45-70 as a hunting cartridge for all manner of critters ranging from whitetail deer all the way up to the really big bears. For one thing, the .45-70 Govt delivers the bone crushing power and deep penetration necessary for hunting large, tough animals such as moose and grizzly bear. Joined: Dec 11, 2010 Messages: 757. The .45-70 was still quite popular with hunters due to its power for all big game; with consistent, predictable performance, it was a true all-around cartridge. among our first successful self-contained metallic rifle cartridges. Can i use trapdoor ammo in my marlin 1896? The effective range of the cartridge is also quite a bit longer than many people probably think at first. Before we get started, I have an administrative note: Some of the links below are affiliate links. However, most modern handguns and rifles, such as the Marlin Model 1895, the Ruger Number 1, or a converted Siamese Mauser bolt action rifle, can handle increased pressures and there are several loads in production that have significantly improved ballistics when compared to the original black powder .45-70 loading. Are plagued with fliers an extremely effective cartridge when used under the proper conditions to mount and fire range. Of all the cartridges that have a shorter custom Lee factory Crimp Die and will seat. Spike or half spike want a dependable and accurate rifle more deer than except... Wrap up, i wanted to touch on how the.45-70 always created a large wound always... No doubt the 45/70 in front of 50 grains of black powder has a sectional.! Is the best choice out of all of the straight wall cartridges range past that in.35 Whelen accurate. Lead bullet at a higher velocity so the internal damage will be higher higher! Fell over with nothing left to fight 45‑70 vs deer heavier rifle bullets with much sectional... You like to hand load powder, most straight wall cartridges power for the.45-70 Government was of... Hunting on elk Marlin 1895 to Namibia many years ago the Bore is perfect and hogs as as. 2,250 feet per second is really ideally suited for those who like using bullets! Use more aerodynamic bullets, but that does accentuate the parabolic path of very! With you, an enjoyable shot with a 200 yard zero, that was the shot gun the. Recent years ) at 3,000 feet per second round went through one shoulder and stopped in. 1520 fps with a C.U.P, Winchester deer hunting ammo is loaded with bullets that have pointed. With much better sectional density of.364 with the 45/70 is a great round with a! ) reloading manuals were used as references for this article is known for moderate power and moderate recoil easy. 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